Interview – Bernard Lietaer from MONNETA on Vimeo.
4. May 2016, Brussels
Q 1– 0:07 – Where does money come from?
Q 2 –1:04 – Is money neutral?
Q 3 –2:41 – Why is money scarce?
Q 4 –4:57 – Can this monetary system work sustainably?
Q 5 –7:46 – Does the financial system need growth?
Q 6 –9:11 – Why are you interested in monetary-systems?
Q 7 –10:41 – Do we have just one monetary system at the moment? Like a monopoly?
Q 8 –12:32 – What would you propose regarding the monetary system?
Q 9 –15:31 – Are there alternatives to the current monetary system?
Q 10 –17:30 – Why is there this speechlessness about money-topics?
Q 11a –19:22 – What kind of behaviour does our money-system create between people?
Q 11b –21:49 – Does the scarcity of money harm only the poor people?
Q 11c –25:56 – What does money do to people and their relationships?
Q 12 –31:55 – How did you discover complementary currencies?
Q 13 –34:42 – Did the knowledge of complementary currencies effect your life?
Q 14 –35:49 – What do you think your co-author Margrit Kennedy achieved in regard to monetary systems?
Q 15 –37:33 – Are there changes to this financial system?
Q 16 –41:09 – What do you think about internet-based currencies like Bitcoin and the new technology Blockchain?
Q 17 –42:30 – You observed the global financial development for decades. What do you conclude from your experience?
Q 18 –44:34 – Where do you see practical progress concerning complementary currencies?
Q 19 –48:00 – What would you propose for countries which are in Euro-crisis like Greece?
Q 20 –49:02 – If you were in power, what would you do?
Q 21 –50:40 – What do you think about the Euro?
Q 22 –52:21 – For which task do we need the Euro?
Q 23 –55:02 – Could a currency have influence on the question of war or peace?
Q 24 –58:10 – Are there “currency-wars” or wars because of currencies?
Q 25 –59:43 – Does the money-system polarize?
Q 26 –1:01:10 – Can a national lead-currency deprive other currencies and nations?
Q 27 –1:02:00 – What is the motivation for your work?
Q 28 –1:03:45 – Do you like to give a message to the next generation?
Bernard Lietaer “Money for the Future – Systemic Solutions for Financial Crises“ from MONNETA on Vimeo.
Bernard Lietear, economist, central banker, psychologist, author and money designer, gives a vivid account of todays money system crisis – and what do to about changing it to serve us better.
Lietaer talks about the four powerful human-created mega-trends that he expects to converge within ten years and that will need to be resolved within twenty years: Climate change and biodiversity extinction, age wave, information revolution and monetary instability. His conclusion: we will experience as much change in consciousness within twenty years as over the past 5000 years.
Bernard Lietaer has been active in the domain of money systems in an unusual variety of functions. He worked for the Central Bank in Belgium and acted as President of Belgium’s Electronic Payment System. He advised countries and multinational corporations on four continents. As a hedge fund manager he was named “the world’s top currency trader” by Business Week in 1992. He is the author of fourteen books, including The Future of Money translated in 18 languages.
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So far, critical questions concerning our monetary system and the financial crisis have been underexposed.
The new film ‘A Flaw in the Monetary System?’ depicts in 7 ½ minutes consequences of interest and compound interest in the financial world in descriptive graphics. It illustrates the systematic redistribution of money from the majority to the wealthy.
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Why money matters from MONNETA on Vimeo
We are mourning for Bernard Lietaer, who died from cancer on February 4th. He was a friend, colleague and mentor to us for many years, who blessed us with extraordinary insights and invaluable inspiration. Not only has the world now lost the person with the most far-reaching knowledge about money, but also a head and heart that knew how to design monetary systems for the benefit of people. He was out to change the world of money for the better. He knew that money is such a powerful instrument that determines not only our economies but also our thinking. His enthusiasm for the topic never faltered because “if there is a single instrument, that can be brought to bear on all issues that we need to address to save mankind, it would be the money system.”
Fundamental terms like “complementary currency” and “monetary ecosystem” are attributed to him and he kept saying: “Name a problem and I will design a complementary currency to help you solve it.” Margrit Kennedy wrote to her friend and co-author of many years: “Your creativity, your inexhaustible ideas on how to design, invent and transform money, simply leave me in awe.” Both of them were convinced, that diversity in currency systems would be far superior for the benefit of people, the economy and the planet than our singular money system, in which banks create money by giving loans.
He suffered seeing how his ideas failed to be systematically implemented in policy: Despite the many thousand local complementary currencies that were launched in the past decades, he never received substantial recognition within the conventional financial system. “I have lost my illusion that having the solution is what matters. It’s absolutely irrelevant.” he remarked to us in one of his last video-interviews in 2016. And it pained him deeply that Greece never got the chance to issue a national parallel currency. He was convinced, that the Greek people would have been much better off, if they had their own second currency – much like Britain has with the Pound – to be used alongside the Euro.
Bernard Lietaer was a great thinker with an unusual bright intellect, enriching the lives of so many people. For us he stands in the line of economist like S. Gesell, J.M. Keynes or N. Georgescu-Roegen. Isaac Newton is quoted saying that we are all standing on the shoulders of giants and hence can look further into the future. On the 7th of February Bernard would have celebrated his 77th birthday. We will always love him and are now standing on his shoulders, to continue his work and built a better world.
Stefan Brunnhuber und Kathrin Latsch
February 7th, 2019
Bernard Lietaer, A Financial Justice Warrior Who Fought for Freedom of Currency
Bernard Lietaer, 1942–2019
I am deeply saddened by the loss of my dear friend and mentor Bernard Lietaer, who died Monday morning at his home in Hoherhagen, Germany with loved ones. I had the great honor of getting to know Bernard in recent years as he served as President of the Bprotocol Foundation and its Chief Monetary Officer.
Bernard was a financial justice warrior; a fierce advocate, sharp businessman and revered educator who dedicated his extraordinary career to exploring global monetary systems, uncovering truths about their effect on civilization and shaping their evolution through rigorous research, eloquent writing and heartfelt lectures around the world.
I first met Bernard when he came to Israel to give a talk on community currencies at the University of Tel Aviv. One of my co-founders was presenting our own work on local currencies, and I ended up sitting next to Bernard and translating her entire lecture for him from Hebrew to English, in real-time. It was intimidating and also exhilarating — to directly share our findings and ideas with a hero who had inspired our work to begin with, via You Tube videos we discovered while researching Bitcoin in 2011. We then reconnected several years later after he read the Bancor Protocol whitepaper and believed it to be the breakthrough he had been searching for in his decades of work on complementary currencies.
Bernard’s diverse career in money — as a central banker, fund manager, university professor and consultant to private and public institutions alike — opened his eyes to the merits and flaws of different financial systems. In 2010 he wrote:
“I sometimes feel like a flying fish who has had the opportunity to take a ‘bird’s eye view’ of the water in which we swim, and is now trying to report back to its fellow fish and explain what it has learned about what we usually cannot see.”
His ideas about money were often ahead of their time. As a graduate student, he developed the first in-depth research on “floating exchange rates” a year before President Nixon took the United States off the gold standard and initiated a worldwide shift to floating exchange. Later, as a central banker, he designed the European Currency Unit, the precursor — and what many have said was a superior approach — to the Euro we have today. As the Great Recession wreaked havoc in 2012, and austerity measures constricted the flow of national currencies in debt-saddled nations like Greece, Bernard urged Greek cities and towns to adapt and create their own parallel currency system. And long before blockchain technology emerged to offer a new set of tools for currency development, Bernard advocated for an alternative, multidisciplinary view of money which drew on findings from history, psychology and ecology to expose untruths about the global monetary system, inspiring discourse, debate and global action by entrepreneurs and activists to redesign money from the ground up.
One of my favorite talks by Bernard in which he outlines his vision for the future of money and the planet.
Bernard believed that communities could design complementary currencies, alongside and in support of their national currencies, which would better serve their needs, and better protect and stimulate local, national and global economies through the kind of diversity that generates resilience in nature. The main barrier to this reality is that most people don’t understand that an alternative financial system is even possible. The choice of currency, he said, has long been obscured by money’s tradition of secrecy and mystery:
“This mystery has an extraordinarily long history: for thousands of years it was of a religious nature, now money remains enchanted just as effectively by a spell of academic jargon and esoteric equations. Our challenge will therefore be to bring the ideas down from the academic ivory towers while remaining conceptually sound.”
Bernard ventured beyond the corporate boardrooms and government corridors to advance new ideas about currency and initiatives that shared his vision for systemic reimagining. He sensed that the evolution of money would have to bubble from the ground up, rather than be prescribed from the top down — and his optimism in this eventuality strengthened with the advent of accessible connective technologies such as cellular networks and the Internet.
In his 2010 book, “The Future of Money”, Bernard wrote:
“Below the radar beams of many official monetary experts, fundamental change in our money systems is in fact already well under way, irresistibly driven by the social and technological forces of the Information Age.”
“The real issue is not whether widespread changes will happen or not, but how much awareness there will be about where these changes are leading us. The real question is whether we are even conscious that we have a choice in the matter.”
A Star From Early On
As a student at MIT in the late 1960s, Bernard gained notoriety for his postgraduate thesis on how to optimize currency management for multinational corporations. His research was among the first to shed light on “floating exchange rates”, which change a currency’s value based on supply and demand in the market. The year after the publication of his thesis, President Nixon took the United States off the gold standard, initiating a global shift to floating exchange rates. Bernard’s research became extremely valuable, and a major U.S. bank negotiated the exclusive rights to his methodology.
Bernard went on to take a position as the head of the Organization and Computer Department at the Central Bank in Belgium, where he was one of the principal architects of the European Currency Unit (ECU). The ECU was based on a “basket” of national currencies, each weighted as a percentage in line with the country’s share of the EU’s gross product and its internal trade. A key feature of the ECU allowed individual nations to devalue their currencies in the event of a downturn — a tool which disappeared after the Euro was introduced in 1999. A 2015 paper examining the ECU’s replacement by the Euro found that the ECU was a “superior approach to monetary union“ which could have been “less economically and politically damaging than the Euro.”
Bernard later wrote:
“It took me several years, and a most revealing conversation with the then President of the BIS (the Bank of International Settlements in Basel, or the Central Bank of the Central Banks, which coordinates the monetary activities of the eleven key monetary countries of the world), to understand that Central Banks exist to keep the system going as is, not to improve on it and that therefore any initiatives of reform would have to come from the private sector.”
He departed the Central Bank of Belgium in 1987 to launch GaiaCorp, one of the first large-scale offshore currency trading funds. The company quickly grew into one of the largest and most successful currency management firms in the world, leading BusinessWeek to name Bernard “the world’s top trader” in 1990.
In the mid-1990s, Bernard left the currency trading firm he founded and embarked on a decades-long mission to teach and consult worldwide on the merits and shortcomings of different monetary systems in an effort to help society make more conscious choices about the financial architecture that governs our collective collaboration.
An Urgent Message For Economics From Nature
In his last book, “Rethinking Money”, published in 2013, Bernard argues that monetary systems function similar to natural ecosystems in that both require a balance between efficiency and resilience in order to be sustainable.
In 2013, as the world grappled with the lingering effects of the Great Recession, Bernard and journalist Jacqui Dunne explored the origins of the current monetary system — built on bank debt and scarcity — revealing the surprising ways its limitations give rise to serious problems, and a potential path forward.
Viewing both monetary and natural systems as complex flow networks, he defined efficiency as a network’s capacity to process volume of whatever flows through it in an organized and streamlined manner. In nature, efficiency may be the flow of water or energy; in economies, the circulation of money. Resilience is a network’s capacity to handle and adapt to changes, such as withstanding droughts in nature or shocks to the financial system. “However, this dependency operates in opposite directions: efficiency tends to be increased by streamlining, i.e., by reducing diversity and interconnectivity. In contrast, resilience increases with diversity and interconnectivity.”
For instance, an ecosystem that has one type of animal which survives off one type of food is an efficient ecosystem, but if the food becomes unavailable due to blight or illness, most likely the animal will die and the ecosystem will collapse. Science shows us that natural ecosystems with different types of life and high connectivity between them have a greater capacity to handle changes in their environment (i.e., more resiliency). This is also the case for economies, Bernard argued, and with too little diversity or too little connectivity (and vice versa), both natural and monetary systems will suffer breakdowns.
Bernard believed that today’s global monetary system was too efficient and therefore too brittle, as evidenced by its repeated instability — including 145 banking crises and 208 monetary crashes between 1970 and 2010 alone. The excessive efficiency is caused by the fact that only one type of money, national currency, flows within a country, created by bank debt and interconnected only at the global level via international exchange rates. While a single type of currency increases efficiency by optimizing price formation and exchange within national markets, there are no other options to sustain trade when a downturn hits and the flow of national currencies slows.
“Monetary sustainability requires a diversity of currency systems, so that multiple and more diverse agents and channels of monetary links and exchanges can emerge,” he said. Bernard compared today’s national economies to ecosystems where only one type of plant is tolerated and artificially maintained, and any manifestation of diversity is eradicated as an inappropriate “competitor” because it would reduce the efficiency of the whole.
The mantra of forever increasing efficiency has become “misguided and counterproductive,” Bernard wrote in 2010. “The quest for greater economic efficiency, for example by downsizing or by ‘just in time’ deliveries or other ways to continually optimize value chains, has reduced the stability of the overall economic system.”
“The urgent message for economics from nature is that the monoculture of national currencies, justified on the basis of market efficiency, generates structural instability in our global financial system. Complementary currencies of diverse types of money enable the economy to flow back towards greater sustainability. While this process clearly reduces efficiency, that is the price to pay for increased resilience of the whole.”
Making Complementary Currencies Work
Following his years in the currency trading world, Bernard emerged as an ardent supporter of complementary or “cooperative” currencies that supplement and complement the national currency.
He battled beliefs that complementary currencies were defective and that the coexistence of different forms of money hindered the efficient functioning of exchange and price formation. He researched and promoted numerous examples of complementary currencies across the globe — from the Brixton Pound in England, to Torekes in Belgium, the C3 in Brazil and the WIR in Switzerland. “A quiet revolution is happening that has, for the most part, gone under-reported. The number of contemporary cooperative currencies operating in the Western world has grown exponentially from two in 1984 to more than 4,000 mature systems today,” he wrote in 2013.
Bernard explains the Japanese cooperative currency, Fureai Kippu.
“Evidence has accumulated in dozens of countries that complementary currency systems can be designed, for instance, to successfully improve solidarity among neighbours; to support cooperation rather than competition in a community; to encourage intergenerational elderly care; or to induce a consumer lifestyle that reduces carbon emissions,” Bernard wrote.
Number of Social Purpose Complementary Currencies Operational in a Dozen Countries (1984–2007).
“These estimates are purposely very conservative. They include only systems that were operational during the corresponding year and whose existence was verified by one of the authors through the net or in personal contact. Many more systems exist that don’t feel the need to advertise their existence.” Source.
Yet Bernard conceded that the vast majority of complementary currency systems were too small, too young and relatively unproven on a wide scale to offer a viable alternative to the existing system. Despite the ability of complementary currencies to increase connectivity within small populations, a mechanism did not exist to easily connect complementary currencies to one another, much less to the traditional economy. This lack of interconnectivity between the currencies themselves frequently led to their eventual stagnation, as rarely is economic life contained within a single community over time.
“One of the main barriers for the use of complementary currencies is that their acceptance is limited and therefore their liquidity is low,” Bernard wrote in a 2017 paper, preventing such systems from realizing their full potential. Our early work in monetary design proved the same — while our digital community currency pilots were successful at first, usage eventually tapered off, because the currencies were not usable outside the communities that launched them.
Years before blockchain technologies entered the public discourse on monetary reform, Bernard had already expressed enthusiasm for decentralized digital money systems and their capacity to break the monopoly of currency. Drawing on ideas from John Boik, a medical doctor who applied his knowledge of natural systems to governance, Bernard predicted in 2015 the emergence of a “mass online democracy” and “local currency system” that is decentralized and relies on “built-in design elements that ensure efficiency, transparency, and effectiveness.”
In Rethinking Money, Bernard applauded Boik’s proposal for a “crowdfunding-like mechanism, which pools small amounts of resources and money from a diverse group of people, usually via the Internet. This generates investment funds for business, as well as a steady stream of donations for funding social services such as schools, nonprofits, clinics, universities, and other groups.”
Bernard began researching blockchain technology, and soon enough, discovered the Bancor Protocol. After reading the Bancor whitepaper three times to verify its accuracy, he concluded that the protocol could be used to liberate new forms of currency and break through the liquidity barrier that had previously hindered their use and widespread adoption.
The main issue preventing interconnectivity across complementary currency systems is the difficulty of performing conversions between such currencies. Historically, changing one type of currency into another requires a trusted intermediary who matches two parties with opposing wants. Since national currencies are highly liquid for one another, finding a party that is willing to exchange is a relatively simple process performed by for-profit matchmakers. However, this reliance on matching creates significant barriers for small-scale currencies to be valued against and thus traded for other currencies at market-determined exchange rates.
Bernard believed that the Bancor Protocol could serve as a public good that facilitates convertibility and liquidity for complementary currencies. Within weeks of discovering Bancor, he was delivering lectures on the protocol to his students and at conferences, as well as publishing research on the innovation.
Bernard discusses the Bancor Protocol in a lecture titled “Economic Justice — Theory to Practice”. (June, 2017)
In a 2017 paper, Bernard explored using the Bancor Protocol for delivering “unconditional basic income” to impoverished communities:
“The main idea is to allow complementary currencies to be issued by users at the condition that the token issued is holding one or more reserves, such as digital or conventional currencies as well as other assets. This will enable any currency using this protocol to be exchanged for any other currency which is part of the ‘Reserve Basket’, without needing a counterparty to do so.”
As the protocol evolved and the Bprotocol Foundation was established, we were honored to have Bernard join as its President and Chief Monetary Officer. Bernard played an instrumental role in advancing the fundamental convertibility technology, researching its implications, and advising the first Bancor-powered community currency pilot network, the Sarafu Network, deployed last August in Kenya in partnership with local non-profit Grassroots Economics. The Sarafu Network has already had a tremendous impact on the communities in which it operates, increasing local commerce by more than 40%, according to initial transaction data.
Kenyan communities trade as little as one tomato on the blockchain using Bancor-powered community currencies. Will Ruddick, co-founder of Grassroots Economics, which is deploying the currencies, said: “Bernard’s vision of diverse monetary eco-systems that support communities and the environment rather than extract from them, as they continue to do now, is the spark that moved me from physics in the US into economics in Kenya.”
As data streams in from the Sarafu Network, showing community members transacting in blockchain-based local liquid tokens, forming diverse channels of monetary links, we are continually inspired by Bernard’s remarkable legacy and his bold vision for freedom of currency as we work to enable adoption at scale.
On Friendship and Balance
Bernard and I were in a sense an unlikely duo. A Swiss German trader and academic in his 70s, and a Californian Israeli technology entrepreneur in her 30s. With every meeting we discovered how our experience, research and intuition had led us to similar conclusions about the world and its money, even coming from very different backgrounds as we did. One of our favorite topics to discuss was the feminine polarity, largely missing from both financial and political governance for centuries. In a lesser known work, “Au Coeur de la Monnaie” (The Heart of Money, 2013), Bernard tracks the ascent of patriarchal society and the rise of centrally governed currencies with the elimination of the Mother Goddess from Jungian Archetypes throughout history. Here too he brings rigorous research and evidence to the case for multicurrency networks as a return to balance so needed in a system growing beyond its sustainable limits and sacrificing resilience tomorrow for efficiency today. Over long walks and longer lunches, we frequently noticed gaps between value and money and thought through how our efforts could help bridge them.
Guest lecturing at Bernard’s popular course on Monetary Innovation at the Sorbonne in Paris, to his students from around the world. Bernard was the type of Professor they cared extremely not to disappoint.
Bernard introduced me to the legacy of Elinor Ostrom, to date the only woman to ever win the Nobel Prize in Economics for her work on Governing the Commons. He often lamented that she passed away soon after being honored and did not enjoy time basking in the recognition of her pioneering contributions. Elinor published her final piece on the importance of local efforts to global environmental regeneration, Green from the Grassroots, on the day of her death, June 12, 2012 — 5 years to the day before Bancor launched BNT — the network token designed as a commons that could allow for global diversity and multiplicity of local currencies around the world. Last summer, and as a result of our ongoing work with Bernard, we hosted an event at the historic Bretton Woods hotel, site of the infamous monetary conference in 1944 where much of the international financial infrastructure as we know it was established. Our aim was to catalyze a conversation around how we might transition to a more equitable global system, perhaps benefiting from technologies newly available since WWII, such as computing, the World Wide Web, and blockchain among others, as well as new insights and social perspectives on inclusivity, gender balance, competition, growth and environmental protection and regeneration.
At this special gathering, we presented an award in the name of the late economist Elinor Ostrom, for courage and leadership in monetary innovation. The recipients were Hilda Heine, the first female President of the Marshall Islands who recently announced plans to create a sovereign cryptocurrency for the nation, and our beloved Bernard Lietaer, President of the Bprotocol Foundation. While Bernard was already battling his illness, our friend, colleague and advisor John Clippinger, who co-authored with Bernard “From Bitcoin to Burning Man and Beyond” (a work conceived at a similar gathering he hosted, at the same historic location), warmly accepted the award on his behalf. It is with poetic synchronicity that Bernard, like his heroine Elinor, was similarly able to only briefly enjoy this recognition for his work. It is with great sadness and also fierce determination and deep gratitude, that we continue to share his ideas and research with the world, and to innovate towards fair, free and fluid financial systems that serve people — just as resilient, natural ecologies serve the planet.
Bernard is survived by his loving wife and partner, Helga Preusse. He will be truly missed. ❤
Gifting my early copy of “Climate: A New Story” by one of our favorite authors, Charles Eisenstein, to Bernard at his home in Brussels. The day before, I presented many of Bernard’s ideas on SDGs at The United Nations, during its first-ever session on blockchain in Geneva. (Photo credit: Helga Preusse)
Sincere thanks to Helga Preusse for her support of Bernard and of our friendship and work with him through the years, and to my co-founders for co-creating a project impactful enough to warrant the time, attention and guidance of such a great thinker — We stand together on the shoulders of gentle giants like Bernard.